MMAP Webinar - Evaluating AB 705 - Shared screen with speaker view
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does this include the placement throuh counselors?
Yes, so that's where we're seeing numbers that aren't 100% the same across all three categories
Does the number assessed exclude students not working toward degrees, certificates, transfer, transfer-level course requirements
Just to be clear, the Chancellor’s Office placement guidelines _allow_ for students without Algebra 2, equivalent, or higher to be placed one level-below transfer-level. But the guidance does not require them to be placed there.
What about the case where a counselor will suggest one class and a student decides against the counselor’s recommendation? Is that at all recoreded?
does include all ed goals...the assessment is being processed/entered regardless of goal
@John...definitely, was a local decision to keep 1 level below for STEM
@meryl - that should often be reflected in the difference between placement and course-taking.
How would you look at the success rate for students who placed into 1 class but enrolled in a different class? Would that still considered a placement success?
@Meryl - exactly like John and Craig mentioned, enrollment and placement won't necessarily line up because of student preference, prereq overrides, etc.
@tyler...I can share how we've looked at that. Numbers are limited, but it is something we've looked at
Yes please. That would be great Kyle. Thank you
HS GPA data seemed to show problems with the GPA only, no?
@tyler - it’s placement data but not necessarily a success because you don’t know if they might have succeeded or failed in or withdrawn from the course that was recommended to them It helps you understand what students did and then you can use that to compare to similar students to understand better the interplay between placement and enrollment.
@Meryl, can you clarify about GPA?
@ meryl, I wouldn't say problems. The one term throughput for direct placement into Calculus for all students way far outperforms any basic skills placement. That is where throughput is important.
If you're interested in another example: Canyons just completed a summary report which can be found here:
Interesting about higher performing students. Thanks @mallory
Are these figures for all students or first time?
Do you count withdrawals in your non-success?
@Tyler: Yes, "Ws" are non-successess
Are you disaggregating for new students vs returning students taking English/math for the first time vs students who has already taken English/Math?
@Jennifer-The BC numbers shown were for all students.
@Jim-Yes, in some analyses. The BC data shown was for all students.
@Preeta: I don't think the report link came through in chat?
Is this DeAnza's data?
@William Silver - Just to clarify, AB1805 requires reporting placement for all students, not just students with transfer, degree, or certificate goals.
@Julie, A safe harbor data submission from a college.
nonsuccesses do include D, F, W
@Jim Sass, it is good to disaggregate by new v returning students or first attempts from those who had previously taken course work in that subject
Cynthia G. da Cruz
how many units in psych stats?
Cynthia G. da Cruz
(versus stats with coreq)?
@Cynthia: 4 units vs. 4.5 units
Is there any disaggregation vis-a-vis LD and LD type?
Is there any data on retention rates? Are students dropping TL courses at a higher rate than pre AB-705
for the students who re-attempted, what's the distribution of them taking the regular or co-req class in the previous term in which they didn't succeed?
@terrence. Thank you. What co req in English does cabrillo have?
@Lan, we have that but I can't remember right off, it should be more taking coreq but will double check
@Meryl, the English co-req is a 2 unit lab style with CAP principles taught by same instructor
how about coreq vs. prereq courses? You may have mentioned this but I dropped for a moment
thank you Terrence. When they repeat the class, do most of them take the co-req?
@Lan, we will check
@Christopher, we focused on coreqs, prior work on prereq found those who started directly in transfer level outperformed those who had taken the prereqs
If we miss some questions feel free to bring them up again during the Q&A.
When will colleges receive guidance for ESL reporting?
@David - We’re aiming for early next month on ESL guidance. It will take into account the difficult/delay in getting the guidance to colleges.
From CoC's report: With regard to throughput of students completing bothtransfer-level English and transfer-level math in the fall term, the rate increased from 25 to 48% among First-time students who were enrolled in both subjects.
Here’s a link shortened version to the Canyons Report for easy of copy and paste or typing in:
Do you know if we wanted to create a new English class co - req model do we need to go through standard curriculum committee, or can we have a pass for a special AB 705 pilot?
@meryl - that would be a local decision as the CO doesn’t prescribe the curricular approach taken for AB705 compliance or the method of it’s approval.
(as a new course)
@Meryl, if it's a unit bearing course, it would need a course control number from the curriculum process before offering, but workshops can be offered without curriculum
@meryl, you asked about disaggregating the data by disability type and status. We have a webinar on May 14th at noon to talk about the importance of disaggregation and provide examples from DSPS programs and how they are supporting students, just an FYI.
@ Terrance .. At Crafton Hills they used a prereq model where students took a 9 week prereq course and then a 9 week TL course in the same term and these students had the highest success rate (even greater than those that came in with the prereq completed). This would be a 4th type of course structure. Just showing that the coreq model can be modified to great success.
@Christopher: BC has that model, as well (compressed acceleration), and we have very good throughput for those courses.
Compliant with AB 705.
@mallory. Thank you
Have you seen any discussion at all of a specific kind of stretch: a student failing after one semester enrolls in a second semester stretch to complete the goals of the first class. Semester one is an “in-progress” that continues into another semester for a chance to continue instruction and successfully complete rather than get an F. We are trying to learn about innovations in that vein.
@John hefts - thank you.
Thanks Craig .. I think its a good approach
@Christopher, is your acceleration pre-transfer to transfer or all transfer level? How many units? Just curious.
@Kelly, that sounds similar to the accordion model I've heard about in ESL
Interesting! “Accordion model” — do you know anywhere someone is doing that so I know who to chat up?
@Kelly, but had not heard about using the IP to stretch the course, that sounds interesting
to confirm, the year timeline is calendar year and not academic year. if so, has college looked at students who were first-term in a term other than fall?
Thank you for that
@Mallory .. pre transfer to transfer.. let me check the units.
Laney College has had the accordion model and it was pretty successful. The curriculum is being changed up a bit now
That’s just how we are explaining it when we are trying to think about it… I’m not sure that is exactly the way it can be done. I’m gathering materials to really dig into later...
@Kelly, with accordion I believe Cuyamaca was one college using that, check out slide 28 https://rpgroup.org/Portals/0/Documents/Conferences/StudentSuccess/2018SSSCMaterials/SSSC18_Presentation_Materials/Collaborating_Across_Sectors_and_Segments/MakingESLStudentReady.pdf
We are trying to think of some non-punitive holding grademark that would let some students continue the class instead offail and have to start of
@Terence — thank you!
AB1805 guidance is coming shortly - it’s stuck in the queue behind all the emergency guidance. Sometime early next month as well.
Is there any guidance from 1805 on reporting placements given to spam applications?
@ Mallory .. pre-transfer to transfer both were 4 units. about 23 in each course
@Christopher, thank you.
@Briana - We’re trying to determine how best to deal with addressing spam applications (students that apply to get an .edu address or various stakeholders testing application/placement mechanisms and never get an enrollment) without discarding real ones (i.e., placements in spring that don’t have enrollments until Fall and so wouldn’t have a placement and enrollment in the reporting year).
This was only done for English .. Not sure if they will try this model with math.
@Mallory This was only done for English .. Not sure if they will try this model with math.
College of the Redwoods has a strong model of a dynamic placement reporting dashboard that satisfies the AB1805 requirements.
@Lan - 16% of them had co-req Spring 2020
But students might use the EW if they were just really misplaced, don’t you think?
Is there any data or program where the FYC class is a STEM English or other specialized English (like the psych stat course)?
@meryl - it’s possible but that seems unlikely because if they were truly misplaced, most of them would have likely acted far before the EW was in place.
This is West Hills' District-Level AB 1805 placement data...this includes the bars from the slide Craig showed at the beginning, along with tables for the race/ethnicity breakdowns: https://www.westhillscollege.com/disclosure/documents/ab1805-placement-district.pdf
In this case, do you consider military withdrawl (MW) the same as EW?
in the past I have considered MW and EW as equivalent but for this term, I would analyze them separately
Where will this webinar be posted?
@Leila - thank you!
@Sofia: All MMAP webinars are posted on the RP Group's website.
@Sofia - You can navigate to the Webinars and Presentations directly by using the following link:
Won’t different h.s. grade differently? Won’t the GPAs be different? Just like different teachers grading possibilities.
Just to clarify the 2019 statewide data set we referenced in the last slide was pulled in early 2019 but included data from 2007 up through 2018
Thank you so much.
@Meryl, perhaps surprisingly, high school GPAs are much more alike across schools than they are different. Perhaps because the GPA represents a variety of individual perspectives on the academic capabilities of a given student, providing a swamping effect that tends towards a consensus & alignment across many individuals.
@Meryl, yes there is instructor and school variability at the HS level too, prior work we have done saw more variability at the college level than the HS level.
Interesting. @terrence and Craig. Thanks.
@meryl - yes, different HS grades differently and yet GPA remained a far, far better predictor than the previous method even with that variation.
In other words, high school GPA tends to "work" the same despite the high school of origin, even though there may be mean differences in GPA across schools.
There are grade norming efforts that some departments and schools have been working on. Some of my local high schools are engaged in that to reduce variability and are considering inviting some of our college faculty
@meryl - should CSU’s evaluate whether or not students who take different individual instructors at our colleges or go to different colleges receive different treatment for the transferability of the courses they complete at our colleges?
@Terrence: That's why we have the PPG-1 method now!
yes, thanks, Craig, for the improvement
@John - do you have data of how different CC students do at CSUs (depending on which CC they have graduated from ?) or CUs?
Sorry, or at the CUs?
Sorry - or at the Univ. of CA ?
Your point is good John! We need to look into it.
Thank you for all of your hard work. Stay safe and well, all!
Victoria Rodriguez (she/her)
Great use of time, thank you!
Thanks, this is very helpful!
Thank you presenters!
be safe. wash your hands.