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MMAP Webinar - Evaluating AB 705 - Shared screen with speaker view
Terrence Willett
02:02:44
Nice, it comes with a vacuum!
ccrew
02:05:01
cant hear
Kylie Thomas
02:05:19
yes
Chris Frymire
02:05:21
I can hear you
Cassie Leal
02:05:21
yes
Jacquelyn Rubalcaba
02:05:21
yes
Eileen Haddad
02:05:21
Yes, I hear you
Yosief
02:05:21
yes
Hintzman Linda
02:05:22
I can hear
Matthew Ng
02:05:22
I can
John Hetts
02:05:23
I hear you fine
David Nippoldt
02:05:25
Audio is fine here
Craig Hayward
02:05:29
Try calling in on the phone line CCrew
ccrew
02:05:42
will do
Craig Hayward
02:05:48
That often helps with audio issues.
Tyler Nguyen
02:08:54
does this include the placement throuh counselors?
Kyle Crider
02:09:54
Yes, so that's where we're seeing numbers that aren't 100% the same across all three categories
Tyler Nguyen
02:10:25
Thank you
William Silver
02:10:27
Does the number assessed exclude students not working toward degrees, certificates, transfer, transfer-level course requirements
John Hetts
02:10:43
Just to be clear, the Chancellor’s Office placement guidelines _allow_ for students without Algebra 2, equivalent, or higher to be placed one level-below transfer-level. But the guidance does not require them to be placed there.
meryl siegal
02:12:00
What about the case where a counselor will suggest one class and a student decides against the counselor’s recommendation? Is that at all recoreded?
Kyle Crider
02:12:13
does include all ed goals...the assessment is being processed/entered regardless of goal
Kyle Crider
02:12:40
@John...definitely, was a local decision to keep 1 level below for STEM
John Hetts
02:12:43
@meryl - that should often be reflected in the difference between placement and course-taking.
Tyler Nguyen
02:13:32
How would you look at the success rate for students who placed into 1 class but enrolled in a different class? Would that still considered a placement success?
Kyle Crider
02:13:36
@Meryl - exactly like John and Craig mentioned, enrollment and placement won't necessarily line up because of student preference, prereq overrides, etc.
Kyle Crider
02:14:10
@tyler...I can share how we've looked at that. Numbers are limited, but it is something we've looked at
Tyler Nguyen
02:14:46
Yes please. That would be great Kyle. Thank you
meryl siegal
02:15:00
HS GPA data seemed to show problems with the GPA only, no?
John Hetts
02:16:03
@tyler - it’s placement data but not necessarily a success because you don’t know if they might have succeeded or failed in or withdrawn from the course that was recommended to them It helps you understand what students did and then you can use that to compare to similar students to understand better the interplay between placement and enrollment.
Kyle Crider
02:16:05
@Meryl, can you clarify about GPA?
Mallory Newell
02:16:37
@ meryl, I wouldn't say problems. The one term throughput for direct placement into Calculus for all students way far outperforms any basic skills placement. That is where throughput is important.
Preeta Saxena
02:16:49
If you're interested in another example: Canyons just completed a summary report which can be found here:
meryl siegal
02:17:07
Interesting about higher performing students. Thanks @mallory
Jennifer Fox
02:17:16
Are these figures for all students or first time?
Tyler Nguyen
02:17:49
Do you count withdrawals in your non-success?
Craig Hayward
02:18:16
@Tyler: Yes, "Ws" are non-successess
Jim Sass
02:18:31
Are you disaggregating for new students vs returning students taking English/math for the first time vs students who has already taken English/Math?
Tyler Nguyen
02:18:33
Thanks Craig
Craig Hayward
02:18:35
@Jennifer-The BC numbers shown were for all students.
Craig Hayward
02:19:11
@Jim-Yes, in some analyses. The BC data shown was for all students.
Craig Hayward
02:19:49
@Preeta: I don't think the report link came through in chat?
Julie Kehoe
02:20:08
Is this DeAnza's data?
John Hetts
02:20:13
@William Silver - Just to clarify, AB1805 requires reporting placement for all students, not just students with transfer, degree, or certificate goals.
Craig Hayward
02:20:31
@Julie, A safe harbor data submission from a college.
Terrence Willett
02:21:41
nonsuccesses do include D, F, W
Terrence Willett
02:22:37
@Jim Sass, it is good to disaggregate by new v returning students or first attempts from those who had previously taken course work in that subject
Cynthia G. da Cruz
02:23:45
how many units in psych stats?
Cynthia G. da Cruz
02:24:04
(versus stats with coreq)?
Craig Hayward
02:26:28
@Cynthia: 4 units vs. 4.5 units
meryl siegal
02:26:31
Is there any disaggregation vis-a-vis LD and LD type?
Christopher Crew
02:26:45
Is there any data on retention rates? Are students dropping TL courses at a higher rate than pre AB-705
Lan Hao
02:28:18
for the students who re-attempted, what's the distribution of them taking the regular or co-req class in the previous term in which they didn't succeed?
meryl siegal
02:28:35
@terrence. Thank you. What co req in English does cabrillo have?
Terrence Willett
02:29:11
@Lan, we have that but I can't remember right off, it should be more taking coreq but will double check
Terrence Willett
02:29:42
@Meryl, the English co-req is a 2 unit lab style with CAP principles taught by same instructor
Christopher Crew
02:29:44
how about coreq vs. prereq courses? You may have mentioned this but I dropped for a moment
Lan Hao
02:29:49
thank you Terrence. When they repeat the class, do most of them take the co-req?
Terrence Willett
02:30:25
@Lan, we will check
Preeta Saxena
02:30:54
Canyons Reporthttps://www.canyons.edu/_resources/documents/administration/irpie/CanyonsAB705Fall2019Data.pdf
Terrence Willett
02:31:18
@Christopher, we focused on coreqs, prior work on prereq found those who started directly in transfer level outperformed those who had taken the prereqs
Craig Hayward
02:31:23
If we miss some questions feel free to bring them up again during the Q&A.
David Nippoldt
02:31:27
When will colleges receive guidance for ESL reporting?
Craig Hayward
02:32:32
Thanks, Preeta!
John Hetts
02:32:34
@David - We’re aiming for early next month on ESL guidance. It will take into account the difficult/delay in getting the guidance to colleges.
Craig Hayward
02:32:50
From CoC's report: With regard to throughput of students completing bothtransfer-level English and transfer-level math in the fall term, the rate increased from 25 to 48% among First-time students who were enrolled in both subjects.
Craig Hayward
02:33:04
Wow!
John Hetts
02:33:15
Here’s a link shortened version to the Canyons Report for easy of copy and paste or typing in:
John Hetts
02:33:16
https://bit.ly/AB705Canyons
meryl siegal
02:33:36
Do you know if we wanted to create a new English class co - req model do we need to go through standard curriculum committee, or can we have a pass for a special AB 705 pilot?
John Hetts
02:34:37
@meryl - that would be a local decision as the CO doesn’t prescribe the curricular approach taken for AB705 compliance or the method of it’s approval.
John Hetts
02:34:53
(as a new course)
Terrence Willett
02:34:55
@Meryl, if it's a unit bearing course, it would need a course control number from the curriculum process before offering, but workshops can be offered without curriculum
Mallory Newell
02:36:40
@meryl, you asked about disaggregating the data by disability type and status. We have a webinar on May 14th at noon to talk about the importance of disaggregation and provide examples from DSPS programs and how they are supporting students, just an FYI.
Christopher Crew
02:37:10
@ Terrance .. At Crafton Hills they used a prereq model where students took a 9 week prereq course and then a 9 week TL course in the same term and these students had the highest success rate (even greater than those that came in with the prereq completed). This would be a 4th type of course structure. Just showing that the coreq model can be modified to great success.
Craig Hayward
02:38:02
@Christopher: BC has that model, as well (compressed acceleration), and we have very good throughput for those courses.
Craig Hayward
02:38:11
Compliant with AB 705.
meryl siegal
02:38:22
@mallory. Thank you
Kelly Douglass
02:38:23
Have you seen any discussion at all of a specific kind of stretch: a student failing after one semester enrolls in a second semester stretch to complete the goals of the first class. Semester one is an “in-progress” that continues into another semester for a chance to continue instruction and successfully complete rather than get an F. We are trying to learn about innovations in that vein.
meryl siegal
02:39:02
@John hefts - thank you.
Christopher Crew
02:39:12
Thanks Craig .. I think its a good approach
Mallory Newell
02:39:47
@Christopher, is your acceleration pre-transfer to transfer or all transfer level? How many units? Just curious.
Terrence Willett
02:39:47
@Kelly, that sounds similar to the accordion model I've heard about in ESL
Kelly Douglass
02:40:30
Interesting! “Accordion model” — do you know anywhere someone is doing that so I know who to chat up?
Terrence Willett
02:40:42
@Kelly, but had not heard about using the IP to stretch the course, that sounds interesting
Dan
02:41:03
to confirm, the year timeline is calendar year and not academic year. if so, has college looked at students who were first-term in a term other than fall?
Christie Gabriel-Millette_SBVC
02:41:10
Thank you for that
Christopher Crew
02:41:21
@Mallory .. pre transfer to transfer.. let me check the units.
meryl siegal
02:41:21
Laney College has had the accordion model and it was pretty successful. The curriculum is being changed up a bit now
Kelly Douglass
02:41:40
That’s just how we are explaining it when we are trying to think about it… I’m not sure that is exactly the way it can be done. I’m gathering materials to really dig into later...
Terrence Willett
02:42:13
@Kelly, with accordion I believe Cuyamaca was one college using that, check out slide 28 https://rpgroup.org/Portals/0/Documents/Conferences/StudentSuccess/2018SSSCMaterials/SSSC18_Presentation_Materials/Collaborating_Across_Sectors_and_Segments/MakingESLStudentReady.pdf
Kelly Douglass
02:42:18
We are trying to think of some non-punitive holding grademark that would let some students continue the class instead offail and have to start of
Kelly Douglass
02:42:20
over
Kelly Douglass
02:42:28
@Terence — thank you!
John Hetts
02:43:58
AB1805 guidance is coming shortly - it’s stuck in the queue behind all the emergency guidance. Sometime early next month as well.
Briana Todhunter
02:44:30
Is there any guidance from 1805 on reporting placements given to spam applications?
Christopher Crew
02:45:08
@ Mallory .. pre-transfer to transfer both were 4 units. about 23 in each course
Mallory Newell
02:46:17
@Christopher, thank you.
John Hetts
02:47:25
@Briana - We’re trying to determine how best to deal with addressing spam applications (students that apply to get an .edu address or various stakeholders testing application/placement mechanisms and never get an enrollment) without discarding real ones (i.e., placements in spring that don’t have enrollments until Fall and so wouldn’t have a placement and enrollment in the reporting year).
Christopher Crew
02:47:38
This was only done for English .. Not sure if they will try this model with math.
Christopher Crew
02:47:53
@Mallory This was only done for English .. Not sure if they will try this model with math.
John Hetts
02:48:57
College of the Redwoods has a strong model of a dynamic placement reporting dashboard that satisfies the AB1805 requirements.
John Hetts
02:49:22
https://bit.ly/RedwoodsAB705
Leila Jamoosian
02:53:49
@Lan - 16% of them had co-req Spring 2020
meryl siegal
02:56:11
But students might use the EW if they were just really misplaced, don’t you think?
meryl siegal
02:57:27
Is there any data or program where the FYC class is a STEM English or other specialized English (like the psych stat course)?
John Hetts
02:57:29
@meryl - it’s possible but that seems unlikely because if they were truly misplaced, most of them would have likely acted far before the EW was in place.
Kyle Crider
02:58:20
This is West Hills' District-Level AB 1805 placement data...this includes the bars from the slide Craig showed at the beginning, along with tables for the race/ethnicity breakdowns: https://www.westhillscollege.com/disclosure/documents/ab1805-placement-district.pdf
Tyler Nguyen
02:58:29
In this case, do you consider military withdrawl (MW) the same as EW?
Mallory Newell
02:59:14
Thanks, Kyle!
Terrence Willett
02:59:15
in the past I have considered MW and EW as equivalent but for this term, I would analyze them separately
Sofia Cook
03:03:24
Where will this webinar be posted?
Lan Hao
03:04:12
@Leila - thank you!
Craig Hayward
03:04:52
@Sofia: All MMAP webinars are posted on the RP Group's website.
John Hetts
03:05:25
@Sofia - You can navigate to the Webinars and Presentations directly by using the following link:
John Hetts
03:05:26
http://bit.ly/WebinarsMMAP
meryl siegal
03:20:30
Won’t different h.s. grade differently? Won’t the GPAs be different? Just like different teachers grading possibilities.
Craig Hayward
03:20:48
Just to clarify the 2019 statewide data set we referenced in the last slide was pulled in early 2019 but included data from 2007 up through 2018
Sofia Cook
03:22:16
Thank you so much.
Craig Hayward
03:22:55
@Meryl, perhaps surprisingly, high school GPAs are much more alike across schools than they are different. Perhaps because the GPA represents a variety of individual perspectives on the academic capabilities of a given student, providing a swamping effect that tends towards a consensus & alignment across many individuals.
Terrence Willett
03:23:03
@Meryl, yes there is instructor and school variability at the HS level too, prior work we have done saw more variability at the college level than the HS level.
meryl siegal
03:23:31
Interesting. @terrence and Craig. Thanks.
John Hetts
03:23:54
@meryl - yes, different HS grades differently and yet GPA remained a far, far better predictor than the previous method even with that variation.
Craig Hayward
03:23:57
In other words, high school GPA tends to "work" the same despite the high school of origin, even though there may be mean differences in GPA across schools.
Terrence Willett
03:24:11
There are grade norming efforts that some departments and schools have been working on. Some of my local high schools are engaged in that to reduce variability and are considering inviting some of our college faculty
John Hetts
03:25:12
@meryl - should CSU’s evaluate whether or not students who take different individual instructors at our colleges or go to different colleges receive different treatment for the transferability of the courses they complete at our colleges?
Craig Hayward
03:29:11
@Terrence: That's why we have the PPG-1 method now!
Craig Hayward
03:29:33
8^D
Terrence Willett
03:30:08
yes, thanks, Craig, for the improvement
meryl siegal
03:31:00
@John - do you have data of how different CC students do at CSUs (depending on which CC they have graduated from ?) or CUs?
meryl siegal
03:31:11
Sorry, or at the CUs?
meryl siegal
03:31:20
Sorry - or at the Univ. of CA ?
meryl siegal
03:31:41
Your point is good John! We need to look into it.
Lilia Tanakeyowma
03:31:46
Thank you!
Kalina Hill
03:31:50
Thank you for all of your hard work. Stay safe and well, all!
meryl siegal
03:31:51
Thanks!
Victoria Rodriguez (she/her)
03:31:56
Thank you!
Kyle Crider
03:31:58
Thanks!
Christie Gabriel-Millette_SBVC
03:32:00
Great use of time, thank you!
Vida Manzo
03:32:02
thanks bye
Melanie
03:32:15
Thanks, this is very helpful!
Indra Liauw
03:32:21
Thank you presenters!
Virginia Moran
03:32:29
be safe. wash your hands.
Skyline Assessment
03:32:32
Thank you.