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ZTC Vs OER Vs No-Cost - Shared screen with speaker view
Andrew Park
26:51
BTW, is there a way to set up Zoom chat so that later joiners can see earlier chat messages?
Michelle Pilati
27:28
That’s a great question - I know we can archive it and make it available.
Andrew Park
28:13
Right, I did notice when I was recording for my "virtual class session" (something I learned from Cindy), that chat does get recorded into the recording, starting from the point when the recording started ...
Tamar Khajadourian
28:32
Hello, is there supposed to be sound? I can't hear anyone.
Andrew Park
28:49
I just remember in one of the meetings, having to repeat something like 6 times, because the people who join later couldn't see the message/link posted into chat earlier.
Tamar Khajadourian
29:05
I can hear you! Thank you :)
Dan Crump
38:21
I wish they had said "sections" instead of "courses" because not all secitons in a course might be ZTC.
Amanda Taintor
38:55
Great point Dan. These are the types of things we are hoping to discuss today.
Dan Crump
44:43
example of OpenStax in that there is a free PDF download and you can also purchase a print copy for a low cost.
Dan Crump
45:05
but can that "class size" purchase of books by a college be sustaniable?
Elena Flacks
45:06
What if the instructor requires a student to print their ZTC textbook, and it costs $58?
Elena Flacks
45:22
I mean OER textbook?
Andrew Park
45:35
An example I remember seeing addressed was a cosmetology class, that may have a materials fee. I *thought* that was both ZTC and "no-cost".
Dan Crump
45:37
If they REQUIRE printing, then I would not consider it to be ZTC.
Dan Crump
46:15
Same thing with lab manuals. I can get instructors to make it online (for free), but they are required to print out completed pages.
Dan Crump
46:39
CO has allowed class sets.
Mary McMillan
48:25
I've been asked by several faculty about the purchase of a textbook that is used across a series of classes/semesters. Is it a cost for the 1st class in the series and then ZTC for subsequent classes?
Kathy Schultz
50:09
Mary- What if a student is allowed to join the second course and has to buy the textbook at that time?
Dan Crump
50:20
What if the student doesn't start the sequence at that college until term 2 or 3?
Mary McMillan
50:55
That is the question Kathy and why I wanted a confirmation to share.
Andrew Park
51:50
As instructor for one of these sequence courses (Physics 4A-4B-4C), I would agree with Dan. I've seen many students in PHYS 4B or 4C who were at my college for the first time.
Richard Robison
54:00
Eliminate the use of term "Textbook"
Dan Crump
54:13
Our redesign of our college (and district) websites took away strict compliance with SB 1359. Haven't had a chance to talk to the higher-ups about it.
Andrew Park
54:32
If we are taking a vote, I would vote yes.
Kat King
54:46
yes
Andrew Park
54:46
Library Science classes are I think classic example.
Shirley Miranda
54:58
I am sorry, can you repeat the question?
Aloha Sargent
55:01
I vote YES
Dan Crump
55:02
Bottom line is "what is the cost to the student?"
Tamar Khajadourian
55:09
Yes
Kelsey Smith
55:10
Depends. It wouldn't work for us since we use the designators for tracking. Don't want to include a PE course in our ZTC data
Allison Murray
55:18
At Long Beach City, we’re calling them ZTC, but are using a different color on the ZTC icon, so we can differentiate between OER courses and non-textbook classes.
Richard Robison
55:21
Yes, only "cost" or "no cost"
Mary McMillan
55:26
We had decided to include these into ZTC sections as we want to be consistent & clear with students who are primarily considered with the free cost and not how it is made that way.
maggie frankel
55:59
I vote yes! No cost is no cost. Our school's still working toward the designation though.
Richard Robison
56:01
do students care?
Aloha Sargent
56:08
For the students, I don't know if it matters
Richard Robison
56:19
Students only care if there is a cost or no cost
Kat King
56:20
I think what matters is students know there is no textbook cost
Lindsey Bertomen
56:50
If the end result is the student doesn’t have any cost, what difference does it make?
Aloha Sargent
56:51
Our KIN classes do have textbooks, mostly
Kelsey Smith
56:58
Right. Just meaning we don't to include a course that's never used a text in our ZTC data
Kathy Schultz
57:02
Not sure I understand how it matters at all "how" a course became no cost.
Dan Crump
57:28
I can see this being more of an important question if there compensation to the instructor for having ZTC material.
Suzanne Wakim
58:11
Free is useful for the main class page (you don't have to spend money) but they SHOULD be told that they will need digital resources. This could be explained on the bookstore link for the class
Kathy Schultz
58:26
And compensating faculty would be inappropriate since not all areas have alternatives.
Dan Crump
59:16
Re: PE/kinesiology. many of our courses state "instructor-generated materials." Usually meaning handouts.
Mary McMillan
59:20
I guess some depends on the customizability of your SIS platform. Ours is very limited and it was difficult just to get ITS to include one additional search factor/logo.
Dan Crump
01:00:20
But.... materials fee for Lumen materials would not make it ZTC.
Adina Lerner
01:02:43
That seems unrealistic.
Richard Robison
01:02:45
Yes, especially as initiatives like CVC-OEI course exchange continue to grow
Shirley Miranda
01:02:46
Consistent practices are a good idea
Kelsey Smith
01:02:54
I was thinking about the course exchange as well
Andrew Park
01:03:27
Does CVC-OEI search system mark for ZTC/no-cost?
Aloha Sargent
01:03:40
Ideally consistent. Statewide library system also comes to mind in the move towards consistency.
Noemi Beck-Wegner
01:03:40
I think there should be consistency, not only for students but also for instructors who teach in different campuses
Suzanne Wakim
01:04:31
@Andrew - they have been discussing this. If it isn't labeled yet, I think they may be considering it.
Kathy Schultz
01:04:34
We may not be able to be wholly consistent but maybe a few guidelines. For example, if there is a material fee it cannot be listed as no cost.
Allison Murray
01:04:35
It would be really nice to have clean and clear language from the OERI to share with my colleagues who want to argue whether or not a course should be designated as ZTC.
Allison Murray
01:04:47
exactly.
Shirley Miranda
01:04:54
I second that! :)
Aloha Sargent
01:04:59
me
Mary McMillan
01:05:24
I agree Allison. Just to get our administrators on the same page would be fabulous.
Shirley Miranda
01:05:38
Yes
Allison Murray
01:06:09
Will that state-wide system also have a digital shelf/space for OER so students can access their instructor adoptions in one place?
Aloha Sargent
01:06:39
@Allison - that's a great idea! It won't at first, but that capability does exist, I believe
Shirley Miranda
01:06:45
Sorry, another question that might have already been addressed... what is considered "low cost"
Dan Crump
01:07:11
do they also restrict students for searching for online sections?
Allison Murray
01:07:34
@Aloha, we’re looking into a possible digital library shelf at my college. But if it’s available at the state-wide level, that would be amazing.
Aloha Sargent
01:08:04
Very interesting, @Allison. I will take this idea to the statewide meetings
Richard Robison
01:08:15
Library systems should have e-reserve capability to allow for seamless OER access
Allison Murray
01:08:36
Please, and thank you, @Aloha.
Dan Crump
01:08:44
We have a district task force considering a low-cost designation. Thinking about $40.
Aloha Sargent
01:08:49
Agreed, @Richard
Allison Murray
01:09:20
:). Yay!
Mary McMillan
01:09:35
We have a goal to designate "low-cost" by the end of this semester.
Dan Crump
01:09:36
But wouldn't that be problematic because OER allows for remixing?
Aloha Sargent
01:10:03
Interesting possibilities ahead!
Dan Crump
01:10:10
But we won't all be subscribing to the same e-book collections.
Mary McMillan
01:10:25
It is the same library system with different instances of it to result in the particular library's collection...not a shared collection.
Richard Robison
01:10:52
Remixing to a point. There are "versions" allowed, i.e., students use version 5.1 for spring English 101 class
Aloha Sargent
01:10:55
But it has the capability for sharing
Mary McMillan
01:11:02
Its similar to Canvas in that regard.
Richard Robison
01:11:44
E-reserves with OER requires faculty to maintain and update to most current version
Dan Crump
01:11:48
Nope, I'm not going to give access to DVC or Cabrillo. LOL
Richard Robison
01:12:06
hahaha...
Dan Crump
01:12:06
that's for richard and aloha.
Aloha Sargent
01:12:15
Sharing is caring!
Shagun Kaur
01:12:17
I think the idea of Lumen and homework systems also came up and that is another point to consider
Mary McMillan
01:12:57
I'm curious how people are keeping their online schedules up to date. Who collects the info from faculty, who actually makes the notation in the schedule? Who then changes it when a different faculty member teaches the section?
Dan Crump
01:13:34
Yes, my college/district "improved" our websites and it makes it harder to identify ZTC sections. Grrrr.
Kelsey Smith
01:13:35
On our campus that's my role. I'm the OER librarian and the only one doing that sort of tracking and reporting to change the schedule
Lisa Burgert
01:13:47
Mary - Mesa's bookstore handles that.
Cheryl Cruse
01:14:06
@Mary that is our challenge too. Office of instruction gets faculty's adoption so No Cost designation sometimes not accurate if faculty report incorrectly.
Cheryl Cruse
01:14:23
Office of instruction is entering data
Kathy Schultz
01:14:26
Mary- Right now, faculty turn that informaiton into their Dean's with their proposed schedules
Allison Murray
01:14:30
@Mary, at my college, ZTC and LOW designations have to go through me for approval (via email) and then I send a request to our scheduling techs, who add in the icon, so it happens instantaneously.
Shagun Kaur
01:14:59
Our OER Coordinator does it on our campus
Aloha Sargent
01:15:15
Yes, us too, office of instruction
Nicole Major
01:15:18
In our MySite system faculty flag their own courses as ZTC. (Saddleback College)
Lindsey Bertomen
01:15:25
No one wants to take responsibility on our campus. I’m working on it...
Mary McMillan
01:15:55
Who checks to confirm that they are truly using OER? It seems the data is only as good as the self-reporting of the faculty.
Dan Crump
01:16:25
I "volunteered" myself as the oversight person for ZTC designation. The Instruction Office gets a list from the College Bookstore of sections that state "no materials required." Those sections get the ZTC designation and I then check the schedule off that list.
Mary McMillan
01:16:26
Same for us LIndsey. I've been doing what I can, but would love to develop a formal process.
Suzanne Wakim
01:17:15
Or, "I'm linking out to a pirated PDF. So, no cost to students"
Kelsey Smith
01:17:23
hahahah
Nicole Major
01:17:31
We have not have too many issues with it, but our OE dean is on it if not. We also send out an email to faculty to remind them to flag when the new class schedule comes out and also send out parameters of what constitutes ZTC, etc.
Mary McMillan
01:17:32
Haha...yes, Suzanne. I have seen that numerous times now.
Aloha Sargent
01:17:39
And is the bookstore clearly labeling the print copies so that students know it's available freely online?
Lisa Burgert
01:18:14
Aloha - here they do.
Jennifer Paris
01:18:21
@Aloha. Good point! I think that is hard for them.
Kelsey Smith
01:18:21
ours isn't
Aloha Sargent
01:19:04
It might be inadvertent, but it seems sad
Suzanne Wakim
01:19:30
Our bookstore created a "book" with ISBN called "free digital version, see instructor"
Andrew Park
01:20:00
Our Follett bookstore has just "free OER" designation.
Dan Crump
01:20:09
Frustrating when the cost of the print copy is in large letters and the"free PDF download" is in the smallest font possible.
Aloha Sargent
01:20:23
Would love to see all these examples in one place...maybe images of what bookstore labels say
Andrew Park
01:20:43
For the OpenStax book we are using ... I just tell my students to get it from Amazon. :|
Allison Murray
01:21:13
Has anyone else had problems with their bookstore adding on a high mark up to low-cost text and courseware access codes? Our store, Barnes and Nobel, has been adding an obscene mark up to low-cost access codes and other materials. They’ve also added on “required materials lists” to ZTC course listings that the instructor hasn’t requested.
Shagun Kaur
01:24:17
tinyurl.com/ASCCC-OpenEd
Richard Robison
01:24:29
Thank you!
Aloha Sargent
01:24:39
Thanks!
Kathy Schultz
01:25:00
Sorry if I missed this but will this slide show be available to us separately from the recording of the session?
Aloha Sargent
01:25:00
Great idea, Jennifer! I will do that asap.
Amanda Taintor
01:25:25
@kathy, yes. We will make sure its avilable seperately
Kathy Schultz
01:25:38
Thanks!
Noemi Beck-Wegner
01:26:16
Thank you!
Shirley Miranda
01:26:40
Thank you, everyone! Would the power point be sent to us?
Thea Alvarado
01:26:55
Oh hi! I'm here
Thea Alvarado
01:27:24
No, it was by Hammond and Cheney
Thea Alvarado
01:28:37
Thank you all!
Andrew Park
01:28:38
Thank you so much!
Aloha Sargent
01:29:15
Thanks! See you next week!
Shirley Miranda
01:29:20
Thank you all
maggie frankel
01:29:23
Thank you! this had been great!